By Sunday Ani
The Bishop, Catholic Diocese of Sokoto State, Matthew Hassan Kukah believes that in 2023, Nigerians must vote for a president who understands the complexity of the nation. In this interview on Arise Television, he spoke on the 2023 general election, insecurity in the country among others.
Does the coming 2023 general election offer any hope for Nigerians?
Nigeria is playing politics without political science and I set the tone for that conversation because politics is a science. All these hit and miss, stumble, fall and get up that we are running, what we are running in Nigeria is a glorified valid form of feudalism that has not been able to move from mere prebendalism to the strictness of political science. Now we set the tone for this conversation and the quality of the debate was such that it vindicated me because this is exactly why I decided to set up the Kukah Centre.
Look, anybody who listens to Nigerians would know that we are extraordinary brilliant people who understand what the issues are. I had a conversation with President Jonathan before the event and in the course of our discussion, one of the things I raised with him was that the whole process of team selection in Nigeria is a fraud because it cannot pass the test of what you might call political science in terms of governance. We for example have turned these whole things into a process and platform of distributing privilege because every minister who serves the Federal Republic of Nigeria serves on the basis of being sponsored by a friend, by a traditional ruler or by somebody who has closeness to power.
And the difficulties ministers experience is even a shared process of getting in. A lot of them even found themselves getting surprised by a telephone call to come and serve and primarily Nigerians will tell you that every state should have a minister but the problem is that people’s loyalty is to their community, state and when there is any loyalty left, it can be transferred to the Nigerian state. And this is why in the end, in serving Nigeria, people measure their proficiency and competency by how many people in their villages they manage to smuggle into Abuja by way of government appointments and employment.
So, I wanted to set the tune to the fact that we must move away from where we are because we cannot continue doing the same thing and expect a different result. For the future, there is greatness in Nigeria and we have a generation that is definitely posed far better than the generation before to appreciate the complexity of what nation-building is all about.
What sort of qualities would you like to see in the next president of Nigeria in 2023?
I think the concept of leadership is increasingly being redefined as a result of globalization. The world is no longer focusing on who your father or who your mother is or what your town is, the world is now focusing on what is on your brain power, your ability and capacity to govern the world by sharing your brain, not brawn. The point is that we Nigerians and this is also the reality of politics in Africa, have seen traditional and even one of the most unnecessary traditions in conflict with the principles of democracy. The point is that even the whole idea of leadership is often exaggerated because we are confusing officeholders with leaders.
There are many people across the world now who are drawing their inspiration and an average American is not thinking about whether Joe Biden is working or not working; it is only in Africa that there is so much emphasis and focuses on the centre and the president as a presider of a distribution agency, distributing privileges and favours. The real society is going to grow when we expand the frontiers of knowledge and the frontiers of opportunities and that race is endless. There are millions of ordinary Nigerians who are not even interested in doing a government job. I met young men and women who say from day one they are not interested in looking for a government job. In any case, government jobs are becoming a liability because the government no longer has the capacity and they can’t even pay salaries.
So, we are looking for a president that has enough understanding of the complexities of what is wrong with Nigeria. It is not just about good men trying to aspire to help us to greatness when they themselves have shown no evidence that they don’t understand the corridors of power and they cannot connect the point. Our argument is that anybody who aspires to rule Nigeria, we have the opportunity to redesign the template of what we want. And he must be ready to confront Nigerians and answer their questions. Traditionally, we just have a good number of people moving up and down and convincing us and taking a minimal of what they are going to do. I would not be surprised if the next president of Nigeria tells us that we are going to move up to 10,000 megawatts or that they are going to guarantee security.
The critical issue is that leaders must be subjected to a minimum litmus test of what they are promising to do and whether they can show us from their background how they have been able to do this. Luckily for us, the frontrunners in this presidential election have tract records, so those tract records must be what we will use to project the nature of the choices we are going to make.
You wrote a book called Witness to Justice but injustice still reigns heavily in our society and a case in point is what even happened in Sokoto close to you recently after the death of Deborah. Now the police are saying that the initial suspects they arrested were not the killers and that they are still looking for the suspects, does it mean that Deborah has died in vain?
Actually, Witness to Justice is part of theology and because of how gracious Nigeria has been to me; there is a new book coming out and it is titled, ‘Witness to Reconciliation. And it should be ready in another month or two, published by Bookcraft. It is my experience in trying to reconcile Shell and Ogoni people over a seven-year period. But look, as I concluded in Witness to Justice, in the struggle for justice, you must wear the shoe of a long-distance runner. And as. As a priest, a lot of my critics say to me, you know you are a priest, you should be blessing us and not confronting us but like I said, my responsibility as a priest is to comfort those who are victims of injustice.
The Bible encourages us to comfort the afflicted but I also argued that I have a duty and responsibility as a priest to afflict the comfortable with the contradiction that stares us in the face. First of all, Deborah didn’t die in vain. The first thing to say about the death of Deborah is almost like saying that you died in the line of duty because no Christian who died in witnessing Christ died in vain. She is like Leah Sharibu and hundreds of young people who died because of their faith and that are what we are as Christians.
And this is what I mean that we are running a glorified combination of theocracy, democracy and feudalism. It is a system that is so complex and convoluted and it cannot, as I said pass the test of democracy. Now, the killers of Deborah proudly showed us on national television that he was the one that set up on fire. The Sultan of Sokoto spoke against it eloquently, the governor spoke and I also added my voice but in each of the interventions, we called for justice. The next is that the governor said he was going to try all those arrested but a group gathered themselves saying that these trials cannot take place because of what has been done in keeping with the principles of the Quran and the principles of Islam.
There are millions of Muslims who are ambivalent about all these but the only answer to that question is that we are not in a theocratic state, therefore, Nigeria cannot be governed on the principles of any religion. The faith that we profess and the cultures we belong to can be sources of feeding the Nigerian Constitution. But the real test I would give any governor or any president or any operator of the constitution is the extent to which the constitution is made a mirror by which every citizen no matter your position test himself or herself.
The president said nothing about Deborah, contrast that with the killing of George Floyd and contrast it with her picture of President Joe Biden kneeling in front of Floyd’s young son and saying I’m apologizing because America failed you. Now, the revolt that followed in Sokoto in which these people entered our church, they destroyed windows and cars. It is just that we are lucky that some of the youths in the Cathedral were able to repel them before the police arrive. They went to our pastoral centre and destroyed and burnt vehicles. They went to one of our churches and burnt down part of the building but that is not part of the popular narrative.
It is assumed that churches have been burnt in northern Nigeria for the last 30 or 40 years. As a priest, my church can be burnt, my members can be killed and this is the only country people kill you in the name of religion whether a Christian or Muslim and the Federal Government and the state have nothing to say or do. You rebuild your church and you rebuild your mosque on your own and we are supposed to be in a country. The challenge for us is that there are certain distortions in the constitution and we also have a National Assembly that is not in any way coming close to some of the issues or even understanding the post we must put together to talk about justice.
So, injustice persists and will continue in Nigeria because we are just pretending to be in a democracy. Our democracy only has appropriate resources and it has not been tested and allowed to function. This is the only country where you can kill 50 people and nobody cares. But really, we are going to encourage our people to vote but many Nigerians are legitimately entitled to ask, vote for what and vote for who? There will be no need for us to have a government if justice were not at the centre of it all; Nigeria is an unequal society, unjust society, and unfair society and this is why we will continue to confront these bastions of injustice because until there is justice for everyone, there can never be justice for anyone.
What is your take on the emerging political process and what dangers do you think we should watch out for and what do you think of the frontline candidates?
First of all, it is my conviction that if this is what the parties have thrown up, each and every one of them is more than qualified to be president of Nigeria. But the decision is left for Nigerians to make. I think this is one of the elections I’m very hopeful about and here I must commend the president for what he has done to take the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) to the level they are now along with the National Assembly. From the point of view of law and process, there is a lot for us to be hopeful contrary to the savagery that characterizes Nigerian politics in which able-bodied thugs can operationalize. And subsequent to all of these, people reward their thugs with all kinds of positions.
But we are coming very close to a point where what you put in is what you are likely to get out. To that extent, INEC has given us a bit of hope. The second point is that the energy in the election is tremendous and I’m even more excited and confident about the incredible amount of knowledge and passion that the young people have in this process. I know many young people who have the option of going somewhere but they have decided to stay here and fight. And those of us who have had alternative addresses but rejected them must know that this is our country and we are not going to outsource our obligations and responsibility.
Unfortunately, this is a post-Buhari election in which the fabric of our society is literally in shred. And how to build public confidence, secure the country and give people enough confidence to go out to vote that is going to be the challenge. So, I believe this government has tried in many respect but the area in which I have continued to criticize the government persistently is the area of human security because whether you build bridges or you build roads, you have to be physically alive first. And to the extent that this government has done very little to put human security on the front burner, that has been my greatest disappointment.
So, going forward, I believe that Nigerians are energized, they also have the ability to their choices but we must stop these politicians in their craft and insist that they no longer go to the stadium and tell us that they are determined to win this election from top to bottom and they speak for three minutes and everybody claps and go. The media must develop the capacity and must confront these politicians but we must also create an opportunity where ordinary people can ask the questions that are worrying them. We need to institutionalize a sense of confidence because we are all selfish human beings. Everybody wants to look at this process as a mirror by asking what is in it for me.
So far, we are running a country where 90 per cent of citizens believe that their only right to democracy is that they have the right to go and vote and politicians will enjoy on our behalf. We are saying no to that kind of process and the very fact that the base for this election is the anger and frustration of the young people. The only responsibility we have is to channel this anger appropriately to ensure that we get the right outcome.
How do you see young people shaping these elections and what do you see young Nigerians doing ahead of these elections?
I followed the Kenyan elections closely and what I found interesting were the knowledge and capacity of many young people and young commentators. As I say, if you listen to these young people, you would see that what many of them are accomplishing within 20 years are things that many of us that are old now never accomplished in our first 50 years. The point is that elections are not the destinations. The destination is to get Nigeria to greatness and it is not a generational thing.
What I’m saying is that we are happy that technology has enabled this generation. Despite the convoluted nature of Nigeria, many young people have been able to rise and excel. One of the things that took place in my 70th birthday celebration, which the media did not capture, was to get some young people to compete in ICT and so on. Three categories of prizes were given out and you would be amazed at the kind of things young people were doing. One of the things some politicians would ignore at their own risk is the assumption that somehow, all the people in Northern Nigeria feel the same.
The passion that drove people in 2015 has dissipated because people realised that they were lied to. We have seen many Northern clerics, who said that they deceived their people by saying that the 2015 election was a Jihad. Now, we have seen the consequences of religious manipulation. Those who used ethnicity have now paid the price. Beyond the thousands of people that have lost their lives, one positive thing we have learnt in the last seven years is that anybody with a sense of discernment will appreciate that you should not vote for any candidate because he tells you that he is going to establish an Islamic State or he is going to favour Christians.
That should be a sign that this is the worst any politician can say to you and I see that young people are becoming aware of that. I know thousands of farmers, who have changed their perception of what Nigeria is and they have an idea about who they can trust. I am amazed to hear a Northerner on the radio saying something nostalgic about former President Jonathan’s policy on Almjari. Despite not being a Muslim, Jonathan values education so much that he spent billions of naira building Almajiri schools. Ordinary Nigerians, whether Christians or Muslims, are aware of what is going on, so the politicians should go to every nook and cranny of the country and sell their convictions.
At 70 what are the things that keep you going and do you have any regret, we also want you to talk to us about the Kukah Centre, would that be your gift for public discourse in Nigeria?
First of all, I would have said I have no regret, but the only regret I have and what gives me sleepless nights within and outside Nigeria and makes me sad is to see how a nation of such incredible human beings with great capacity has been taken over by marauders, people lacking the passion and commitment to place this country, where it ought to be. That’s my greatest regret in Nigeria. What gave me urgency about putting the Kukah Centre together is that I consider myself a public intellectual and this country has been extraordinarily gracious to me. If you ask me where I get my energy from, it is from the streets of Nigeria, the ordinary people I see on the streets, whether Christian or Muslim.
With a sense of modesty, I have given out a few scholarship awards in the last few years of my being a Christian, focusing on things that can change the lives of the people. There are opportunities out there. The idea of the Kukah Centre came from my experience at the Kennedy School at Harvard University, United States of America. My classmate at Harvard is the waiting Prime Minister in Singapore. What I learned at Harvard is that governance can be taught, it can be learned, and it is about storytelling.
My argument is that it is not everybody that gets to power that has the knowledge. Intellectual contributions are the most important things that we need. My idea is that people can come from everywhere to the centre to learn about governance.
Quoting Section 92 of Electoral Act 2022, INEC recently warned churches and mosques against political campaigns for the 2023 general election, what do you say to that, INEC even said it’s an offence?
This ignorant attempt to dichotomize between church and state is as if the people who go to churches are not you and I. It is the same people that go to churches that go to mosques; the physical church is just a structure. There is a law and if you run foul of the law, you should be punished. For instance, there is a law against murder, and whoever commits murder should be punished.
If for instance, crude oil is kept in my church and mosques, then which are just churches and mosques? If crude oil is found in my church, take me out and try me. INEC cannot tell me that we should encourage our people to vote and get their PVCs, but then say something else. I won’t campaign for anybody, because that’s not my job but if you now talk about people allowing politicians to use their mosques and churches to the campaign, a lot of people will be offended by that attitude.