• ADC is a gathering of election losers

By Agatha Emeadi

Chief Onueze Chukwujinka Joe Okocha (SAN), otherwise known as Chief OCJ Okocha is a legal luminary who has been at the bar for 46 years. He was the former Attorney General and Commissioner of Justice in Rivers State. In this interview with Sunday Sun, Okocha, who has chaired several judicial commissions, talked about several Nigerian issues.

Are you satisfied with the conduct of the recent by-election? And are confident INEC would put up a great show in 2027?

Well, in River State where I live, there was no by-election conducted by the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC). Therefore, I do not have any direct knowledge of what happened in those states where those by-elections were conducted. But I have seen and read from both social and print media that there were a lot of complaints about the conduct of those elections meant to fill seats that were vacated by one reason or the other. Now, those complaints are cogent and I would like all concerned to take them seriously. And those also concerned should investigate the complaints. Any party that felt dissatisfied with the conduct of the elections has the option to go before the appropriate election petition tribunal to challenge the results. Again, about INEC, my humble opinion has been formed over the years that there is lack of confidence in INEC’S conduct of elections. My own experience is that they have bungled most of these previous elections. I have been an experienced person in that scenario. On one occasion, I could not be accredited to vote because they did not have the appropriate voters register and the machine. I have also seen where they did not transmit election results through the BVAS and their electronic gadgets which they themselves introduced. Their own regulations on the conduct of election are not properly adhered to by the electoral officers. So, it gives me a lot of doubt whether INEC has presently constituted the ability and capability to give us confidence to conduct the 2027 elections properly. Now, I understand that the current Chairman is on his way out. I will strongly advocate that the concerned authorities should put in place a credible electoral commission that will be known as the Independent National Electoral Commission right from the chairman to all the commissioners, so that we can have credible elections in 2027. Until and unless that is done, I do not have confidence that INEC as presently constituted should be reposed with the confidence to give us proper elections in 2027.

But then, people are beginning to lose confidence in the judiciary based on past occurrences. That slogan ‘go to court’ shows court can no longer be the hope of the common man?

Those allegations are serious enough for our proper consideration. But as a legal practitioner, we stand as lawyers to defend the integrity of the bench which is the judiciary. Until the contrary is proved to me, I have confidence in the court of Nigeria and any of those tribunals that may be constituted to deal with election petition tribunals. After the election petition tribunal, they move on to the court of appeal for certain matters, then ultimately some of them get to the supreme courts like the governorship and presidential elections. So let us repose confidence in our courts because it is the last hope of the common man. We cannot descend to a state of anarchy where anybody is free and willingly to say, I do not have confidence in our courts. If you lack confidence in the courts, give us the facts and figures that indicate that there is no confidence in the courts. And until that is done, please let us all as Nigerians repose confidence in our courts.   

What is your take on the coalition?

A coalition is a known mode of political parties and politicians arranging to contest elections, particularly if they feel the person they are contesting against is so powerful that they need to come together. They need to come together and form what is called a coalition where they will go together to contest election by either agreeing on a particular candidate or particular political party. It is a known thing in many climes, including the international communities. It happened recently in Kenya where all the parties came together and defeated Daniel Arap Moi and such politicians in Kenya. It happens in many places as a known gimmick by politicians to secure electoral victory.

ADC members have argued that another four years of APC will be catastrophic for Nigerians. What do you think?

Well, ADC is a known political party. Recently, based on your question on coalition, a few politicians who many describe as election losers have come together to say they will use ADC as a vehicle to contest against the candidate of the APC, namely President Bola Ahmed Tinubu. First, what they are doing is not a coalition. Instead, they are people who lost elections and want to join a known party. Their parties are not merging and not in any coalition with ADC. Now those individuals have every right to join any political party of their choice. What they are doing is called freedom of association. Now on the issue that APC government cannot secure good governance for the next four years, saying that it will be catastrophic for Nigerians under APC. I want everybody to speak with circumspection and with hindsight. The economy of Nigeria was badly damaged during the last administration under President Muhammadu Buhari. May God rest his soul. He ruled us for eight years and things went from bad to worse. It was under his watch that one finds it difficult to buy foreign exchange. While Central Bank was selling at different rate to different people for different reasons, black market was selling at their own rate. It was under his regime that the economy totally went down even though Nigeria was set to have become the largest economy in Africa. Now that President Bola Ahmed had taken over, he has completed two years in office for his first-year term, he has put in place principles that we believe will take us out of the woods. And when he talks about his renewed hope agenda, he means we should have hope. He spoke recently at the installation of Olubadan in Ibadan, Oyo state capital, Oba Rashidi Ladoja, telling Nigerians that the economy has turned around, that there will be light at the end of the tunnel. Therefore, let us give him the chance till 2027 because we are not prophets. Our economy may even pick up before we get there. Let us give this administration a chance to show us that they are determined to do the needful.

While we talk about economy, borrowing by the present administration is much, cost of governance is also much. What is your take on this?

Governments always borrow. It was former President Obasanjo who brought us out of the huge debt that hung on Nigeria through Prof. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala. Then, Buhari came and started borrowing too. Know it that the debt this country owes were not accumulated during the regime of President Bola Ahmed Tinubu. Some of those debts emanated from the administration of President Muhammed Buhari. If the ability to borrow is also the ability to repay; then we have no reason to stop the government from borrowing because we need immediate funds for projects, policies and matters of government that requires immediate attention. I see nothing wrong in borrowing as long as they have the ability and capability to repay.

Some political and legal experts, including Prof Itse Sagay, are advising former President Jonathan not to dent his image by contesting with President Bola Tinubu in 2027. How do you see this development?

My first reaction is that I know Prof. Itse Sagay (SAN) very well. He taught me Law of Contract and Public International Law at the University of Ife where I was from 1973 to 1977. Prof Sagay was one of our erudite professors. Prof Sagay did so well and graduated with a second-class upper division before he travelled to England for further studies. So, everybody is free to speak and advise anybody. I personally think the principal person is President Goodluck Ebele Jonathan. It is entirely his own right, privilege and entitlement to seek to contest election in 2027. His qualification first will be determined by his political party on whose platform he wants to contest, then qualifications stipulated in the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and also in the relevant electoral law. So let us leave it to President Goodluck Jonathan. I would suggest that nobody should give him unsolicited advice except he asks for one, otherwise keep your opinion to yourself.

Prof Jerry Gana has also asserted that former President Jonathan would run in 2027…

Jerry Gana is speaking his own mind. Is Jerry Gana in President Goodluck Jonathan’s mind? Jerry Gana did not say that Jonathan told him he will run. Every person is expressing one opinion here and there. President Jonathan is the one that needs to speak. So, after he has spoken, he will go and face the required qualification issues on whether he is qualified to run or not. In fact, without asking, I can tell you that he did six years as a president and the constitution does not allow anyone to do more than eight years. I can as well tell that Jonathan may not run for that office come 2027 because he has already done six years and cannot do more than eight years as nobody elects you to do two years in office. So, I think that President Goodluck Jonathan should be counted out. 

Most commentators have said that the emergency rule in Rivers state has set the state aback. Do you agree?

Yes, I share with it totally and unequivocally. The emergency rule in the state was an aberration and we know how it came because law and order in Rivers State was in imminent breakdown. There was palpable fear in the polity. Some said there was calm, no breakdown of law and order and that there was peace. So I said that was the peace of the graveyard. I live in Rivers State, practise out of Rivers State. I have been in this office as a legal practitioner based in Port Harcourt since 1980 when I finished my National Youths Service Corps from Bornu State, North-East. I graduated in 1977 and was called to Bar in 1978. I belong to the Class of 78 called ‘The Diamond set of the Law school.’ Our set include Olisa Agbakoba, Bayo Ojo, and Oluwarotimi Akeredolu. Four of us have been Presidents of the Nigerian Bar Association at different times. Nobody jokes with us. Once a judge who gave us our anniversary lecture said we can actually form a full court of the Supreme Court because seven of our class members were members of the Supreme Court bench. They were Justices of the Supreme Court, including the Chief Justice at the time, Walter S. N Onnoghen. So, I am of that class. So, the peace that they saw was the peace of the grave yard and there was a palpable reason for President Bola Ahmed Tinubu to declare a state of emergency in Rivers State, and the Supreme Court underscored it by saying that the government was being run by a House of Assembly that had three members and that was House of Assembly passing budgets, clearing commissioners, passing resolutions that could give direction to the government. Supreme Court even nullified the local government election that the government held under one Justice Adolphus Enebeli. So, there was every reason for the president to declare a state of emergency as was later ratified by the National Assembly. But then, that state of emergency was not good for us. Everything came to a standstill, projects that were ongoing were no longer ongoing. House of Assembly was not in place to pass resolutions and to make laws as they are entitled to under the constitution for the peace and law and good governance of Rivers State. So, it was very bitter experience and we are happy now that the president in his wisdom has lifted the state of emergency and restored the governor and his deputy to their positions and the House of Assembly under the Hon. Speaker, Rt. Hon. Martin Amaehule to office. Yes, it took us back, but there is hope that we will recover.

What’s your view on the renaming of the international Conference Centre in Abuja after President Tinubu by the FCT minister, Nwesom Wike?

I do not have any problem with that because I do not know how someone would say most Nigerians are kicking. How and why would they kick? First, I do not think most Nigerians are kicking as if the name of the building is what makes the building, No. Just like saying the hood makes a monk. The international conference centre which I have visited on several occasions, attending conferences and activities was in a total state of disrepair before president Bola Ahmed Tinubu came on board. Shortly after, he appointed Wike as the minister of FCT. Nyesom Wike is the immediate past governor of my state. Indeed, we come from the same local government Area called Obio/Akpor. His village is less than three miles from mine. I have known him well, even earlier on, when he was the chairman of the Obio/Akpor LGA which is also my LGA. We have all known Nyesom Wike to be a performer. If he has managed to secure funds from federal allocations to the Ministry of FCT to refurbish, renovate and re-modernise the place under the regime of President Bola Ahmed Tinubu, then there is nothing wrong in naming the centre after President Tinubu. I personally think there is nothing wrong in naming the centre after our president.

Sowore has levelled corruption allegations against Minister Wike.. What is your take on this?

Anybody who has a credible allegation of corrupt practices against the Honourable Minister should forward the allegations to the relevant agencies. There is ICPC, EFCC, police and other agencies that are entitled to do the investigations. We also have the Code of Conduct Bureau which will know if the man declared any assets in America. To Sowore himself, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Sowore has been accused of openly insulting the President of Nigeria and calling him a criminal. This is a man who says he is a rights activist, presidential candidate in this country. There are allegations against him that his children are schooling abroad, owns properties, the form he filled when he was running for presidency should be investigated. Let us see if he stated that. So, an allegation is one thing, the subject for the allegation is another. If anybody has any proof, let him produce it, especially Sowore, so agencies dealing with corruption can get into investigation.   

Also, Benue State governor once accused some unnamed politicians in Abuja and the House of Assembly of being behind terrorist attacks in the country. What is your take on this?

I personally think that people should not make allegations without factual substance. National Assembly is an institution constituted by two houses – the Senate and House of Representatives. Those two are also institutions but are disembodied institutions. They are members, individuals who are in those two legislative bodies. Then if they are making allegations behind terrorism, they should name the people who are behind these terrorism attacks, so that security agencies will have facts upon which they should investigate. Allegations like these are serious and need to be investigated. They should give us factual indices upon which to proceed. Who are the members of the National Assembly? What is the allegation they have made? Against who have they made those allegations? Telling us they are behind terrorists is not enough; give us factual investigative facts so that the security agencies will have a base for investigation and bring to book anybody found culpable of terrorist’s attacks in the country. 

What do you think is the problem with Nigeria?

The problem with this country is bad leadership. We have come a long way. I saw Nigeria before independence. Indeed, I started primary school two years before independence in 1958. I saw Nigeria after independence until 1963, when it became a republic. I saw Nigeria when it was three regions namely Eastern, Northern and Western regions to when it became four regions which included Mid-West Region. I saw Nigeria when it was carved into states in 1967 by the administration of Gen. Yakubu Gowon. I was already a Class two student in CIC Enugu in 1967. Then my father used to bring home newspapers and magazines like West African Pilot, Daily Times, Nigerian Outlook which I read. Again, I saw Nigeria during the civil war because I was behind what they called the rebel lights in what was then Biafra as it was called. Then, I came back in 1970 when the war ended and resumed school in Class 3, here in Port Harcourt at Government Comprehensive secondary school. So, I have seen Nigeria until today. The problem has been lack of credible leadership. Our leaders all know what to do. They all go abroad and see those beautiful places they refer to as credible democracies; they go to what used to be the Eastern and Soviet bloc, when Russia was a massive quantity called USSRs, so our problem is lack of leadership. When there is credible leadership compliment with credible institutions that can function without the say-so of one strong man. We want strong institutions, not strong president and governors. Look at America for instance, President Donald Trump, despite all odds, does not call the shots all the time in America. People have the opportunity to go to court to protect themselves from unlawful deportation or fired as Trump would say. Everybody has a tenure of office, particularly for some institutions like the Securities and Exchange Commissions, the Federal Reserve Board, and such institutions, even their courts. So, once we have credible leaders and institutions, I believe we will begin to enforce our own laws and regulations. Then Nigeria’s problem will come to an end.

How do you think this government should tackle insecurity in Nigeria?

First, they need to have credible effective and efficient law enforcement agencies. The one for civil order is the police, while army and armed forces deal with external securities concerns, like the territorial integrity of Nigeria. Sometimes, when we have difficult situations in Nigeria, the armed forces are called out to maintain law and order. So, we need to have these institutions to be credible. We are still looking for our Chibok girls in Sambisa Forest. Leah Sharibu is still in captivity because of her faith as a Christian. If we have credible law enforcement agency, we would have proper security. These days, electronic surveillance is the thing. How can a kidnapper be demanding N10m ransom and no one can pinpoint exactly where he is calling from? Again, we need properly trained security men and women and credible courts for prosecution. We need to work on our law and enforcement capabilities before we can secure peace in this country. I pin it down to credible leadership and the institution of credible organisations that will deal with security in the land.

As a son of a policeman, what did you learn from your police father?    

I learnt from my father that law and order is paramount in any country. We grew up, were taught of what was right and wrong. That if you commit a crime, you will be immediately arrested, investigated and prosecuted. Even within their own police organisation, I remember vividly a police corporal who bought a CD Honda Motorcycle that was the reigning mobility then in the early 60’s. Within two days he was arraigned in orderly room in Police Headquarters in Enugu. The question was “Where did you get money to buy a Honda Motorcycle” because your salary as a police corporal cannot afford this. He was eventually prosecuted for corruption. He was taken bribes and perverting the course of justice. My father taught us to be disciplined and law-abiding. In those days, if a child did anything wrong on the street where you are living, any mother in that street would come and reprimand you. Further noise gets you strokes of the cane. When you get home and report the case, you will get a second thrashing immediately. Today, the story is a very different thing because we are not looking after the children like that. The first basic training of a child should be the home, followed by school before the university which teaches more discipline. Even though the universities had freedom of choice, there was still discipline. Though, we protested during Alli Must Go, yet we were disciplined. Unless we give ourselves a good society, things will continue to be difficult. There was nothing like strike in our own time. University programmes for four years will start and finish in four years. ASUU was not going on strike then. Water was running on campuses, where our bed sheets were washed for us. Unless we give ourselves good society, things will continue to be bad and we will continue to find things difficult.

What’s your take on Peter Obi and his presidential ambition?

I know Peter Obi personally as a man of modest lifestyle. In fact, at a time when I was the president of Nigeria Bar Association (NBA), we went for a Bar National Executive Committee meeting in Onitsha; Then Peter Obi was governor and everything was working. People praised his works. He had come after Dr. Chris Nwabueze Ngige who ruled for some years without a proper mandate, Obi won him through the courts. He came and did things that showed he knew what he wanted to do. I respect him as an individual and believe that this is the kind of person that we should give a chance in this country to rule, so we can see what he can bring to bear on rulership. He is a man of the people. I think he has what he takes like other Nigerians too.