By Henry Uche
Senator Ali Ndume in this interview monitored on Arise TV spoke on his rejection of the tax reform bill recently submitted to the National Assembly by President Bola Tinubu. He also weighed in on poor governance and the need to seek solutions from indigenous experts like Dr. Mrs. Ngozi Okonjo -Iweala; Dr. Oby Ezekwesili, among others, to fix the devastated Nigeria’s economy.
You said you have confidence in President Tinubu’s renewed hope agenda, but implementation is where you have issues. You also called for Mr. President to sack more underperforming ministers, who are the underperforming ministers you wanted sacked?
I don’t want you to put me on the spot. What I’m saying is that he has made quite significant moves expected by Nigerians, but it’s not quite enough. It should be a continuous process, and it should also be an expanded process. What I mean by that is that, I don’t know how they arrived at the numbers sacked or relieved of their posts. Constitutionally, you have one minister from each state, and in this government, more ministers were nominated. In fact, we had the highest number. The President himself recognized the need to reduce the cost of governance, and that means or calls for inwardly looking into the number too, because what the Constitution says is that the minimum is 37, one per state, and then one additional one. The President needs to at this time, look inwards to see whether we can just prune down the number. But now, he released some and brought in new ones. The number is still up there. So, it’s not a matter of it’s not a personal thing. It’s just maybe my own opinion, and that may make sense and contribute towards good governance. And not only that, the cost of governance should be brought down, all other agencies of government are doing the same. The focus for now, is on the presidency and the National Assembly, but it should be across board. There are some organizations that are not visible, but the cost implication of running those agencies is enormous, right! So I recommend pruning the system and reducing the cost of governance. This is not the first time I have cried out. If you look at the budget, the recurrent expenditure keeps going up, and the rate of employment is going down, so it doesn’t balance now that the President is looking around, I think he should look deep into it and reduce the cost of governance across board.
You called for the urgent convening of a national economic summit driven by the likes of Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweaka, Oby Ezekwesili, etc, and suggested that they be allowed to come up with recommendations on how to fix Nigeria, instead of letting the IMF and the World Bank do it.
Remember last time the National Economic Summit Group, NESG, was held, I think it was in Hilton, many Nigerians listened to the vice president of the IMF. The chairman gave out one harsh prescription, that the removal of subsidy was a movement in the right direction and that Nigeria should stay on that; the result of that would start manifesting after 15 years. And I went round to find out who is this guy talking anyway and there you are with Nigerian professors, economic professors that are renowned worldwide sitting down to listen to somebody; it’s just like you, I am a lecturer for 20 years in the Polytechnic, I’m not a specialist. My knowledge of economics is not deep, but I have common sense and basic economy, but assuming like me at 64 and diagnosed (God forbid) of cancer, and the doctor comes to tell me, okay, take this prescription, in the next 15 years, you will be okay, I will tell him to get out of that place. That is what the IMF is trying to drive us, when we have the World Bank, we have so many people. The president should as a matter of urgency, now organize a National Economic Summit. We don’t need any foreigner for that.
Don’t you think he is making up the point based on the fact that Nigeria’s problems are sedimented, like a sedimented rock, there are different layers that are so deep that it is not something you can wave…
You don’t need foreigners for reforms, if you have experts at the back of your backyard or at your beck and call. In fact, some of these people have already volunteered, like I heard Okonjo-Iweala one time, she is ready to come and talk to Nigerians, and I was highly impressed when she was invited to South East governors forum and she was talking sense, and not a kind of imported or foreign, but talking to Nigerians as a Nigerian to solve Nigerian problems.
All these people you mentioned were all schooled in World Bank, they worked there for many years, and are used to prescribing tough belt- tightening measures for different countries around the world.
Now you put that word ‘for different countries’. So, if you give Igbo man an European prescription, it may not work for an African. Now, malaria can kill an European, but malaria here, even a day before yesterday, they took my blood, I have permanently 1x malaria. If it is a white man, he will be hospitalized. And now try it. If you want a Nigerian to be strong enough from childhood, you feed him with pounded yam and garri but if you do that with Oyibo man, he will die! The prescription that Okonjo-Iweala and co will give Nigerians will be definitely less harsh and workable, because she knows -she is from here. She knows what is the problem. She knows what is to be done. She knows, they know because they are Nigerians. They know what needs to be done in the Nigerian situation. But when you bring an Indian…
Well, they didn’t bring somebody, they just brought somebody to deliver a speech
Well, anyway, Nigerians are not happy with that prescription. They don’t want to even take it, and we don’t have to force it down their throats.
Some would argue that the biggest problem in this country that needs to be urgently addressed are the politicians…
I think so. But you can go ahead, I am here. But let me tell you, this problem that we have in this country is self inflicted. Look at it deeply. And you know, the World Bank and the IMF have hands in it. They don’t need to be here for us. My fear is that they are deliberately driving us towards Venezuela. Venezuela has the world largest oil reserve with less population, I think, is about 30 million people. And yet, even now, people are dying.
But it wasn’t the IMF that did that, there were internal politics, then the Western sort of American…
Now you are saying, you know when we allow ourselves to be managed by somebody that doesn’t know the environment or the condition we are operating, then you are getting it wrong.
Proposed tax change in Nigeria has been rejected by Northern governors, why is that?
It is simple! I’m here to talk to you as a politician, as somebody talking just from basic common sense. This tax they are talking about, we are almost losing the middle class in Nigeria; it is either you have it or you don’t have it. Those that are in the middle are being squeezed out. If Nigerians can pay for those taxes, it’s okay. But in the current situation, increasing tax is not an alternative at all. I will not support any increase in any tax.
But there were a lot of cut out clauses in that tax reform
Let us get things right first, let people start living, not surviving, let people have extra income. Then you tax them. That is why I say, I want to always use an example of common sense. Looking at you, you can donate it, with your position now, I can easily ask you to bring one Pint of blood in order to save somebody, you can survive it, but look at the guy sitting out there, If you take a pint of blood from him, you may kill him, he may fall and die, he may collapse. Allow Nigerians to have enough blood in their body before you start asking for donation for blood. I think that is wrong. Where the poverty rate is more is in the North. Let’s be frank about that. So you want to introduce taxes again. I mean, tax those people that can afford it. I don’t want to be particular about it, those who can afford it are not even paying the taxes; these big companies, they don’t even declare their income not to talk of getting appropriate tax.
You are from the North, in the National Assembly, are you one of those pushing back against that tax bill?
Yes, I am not going to support it. In fact, I’m going to start campaigning against the increase in tax for now, because it doesn’t only affect the northerners but an average Nigerian, I’m not saying that people should not pay tax, but you don’t go and tax people that barely feed. You are paying somebody N70,000 as a minimum wage and all of a sudden, the price of fuel again went up to N1000, it means, if you put the two together, it’s like, you should have allowed me to continue getting N30,000 and let the cost of liter of petroleum be N100. So, it’s like giving you with the right hand, and taking it from the left hand. Let the tax authorities concentrate on those that are supposed to pay taxes. Like now, I give you example, in Abuja, if you go round, there are lots of properties in there that are not paying tax. And fortunately these days, you have Wike who stands up and try to do something about it, but people are not paying property taxes, and these banks, for example, are making tons and tons of money, and they are not paying tax, and they are collecting tax from everybody. If you transfer money, they collect money from you. If you post money, they collect money from you, and they declare profits, go and check their taxes. Now, you want to squeeze somebody who is barely trying to survive? Are you supporting the tax increase?
The important thing is for the government to have record of the tax base
You start from somewhere, that is acceptable. I, at one time, proposed a bill for communication service tax, it didn’t see the light of the day. It means now I’m handling two telephones, and there are some people out there that cannot afford a telephone, but if you can buy a phone, then you can pay tax associated with it. These are kind of taxes that I will say, why not? Look, you are talking about Abuja here, still many people don’t even have access to phone. Any anybody that can afford the phone should be able to pay some measure of tax.
The governors’ forum reacted very strongly against the blackout in the North…
Is not issue of the North. The South East, Anambra, particularly. I remember I witnessed the worst ever in the history of this country, where I think about 14 states are in blackout now in the North, coincidentally, and that is why I recalled, I think it was a BBC interview and I said, look, under this circumstance, this is a national disaster, and whoever is responsible for that should have created a situation to brief Nigerians step by step on what is going on. It is not the President that is supposed to do that. Somebody is supposed to be there. But now, nobody is even talking about it, until recently, what happened, why it happened, what will be done, when it will be overcome. I mean, you don’t do this. It’s not fair!
They say that the cause of the blackout was vandalization, and the governors have come up to be very angry about it, but some have raised the question whether the governors themselves are not partly responsible in the sense that they have to protect the power infrastructures…
That is not their responsibility when it comes to transmission from point A to B, especially when most of these things have been privatized. I am not exonerating the governors. But this, as I say, it’s a collective responsibility to stop the vandailization. And the question is, the power sector has been there for over 50 years, I can’t remember….in most cases, there haven’t been incidents like this, because this failure in terms of Section 14, two of our Constitution, which defines the purpose of government, “the security and welfare of citizens is the purpose of government”.
But the National Assembly has oversight functions. Are you over- sighting those ministries and departments and so on? You should be putting fire to their feet.
That is another issue. It is not easy, some of us are doing it and I can agree or accept the fact that the level of the oversight and responsibility is going down
While the money that you are being paid is going up!
There you come again.
Yea, if you are given charge of doing something in a country and you are paid to do it, then the attendant responsibility that comes with that pain, one expects you to carry it out.
Well, let me tell you, the environment for doing that is even not there anymore. In those days, when you write an organization that you are coming for oversight, or even before you go for oversight; you write the organization to give you answers to simple questions on the amounts appropriated in the budget and the level of performance, some of them don’t even reply. The House of Representatives last time threatened to issue a warrant, but it doesn’t work anymore. You know why? Because even the selection process has been bastardised. In those days when I was in the National Assembly, in fact, even in the Senate, if you are appointed by the President, if you are nominated to be a minister, you have to get a signature from two of your senators. If they don’t, they are gone, you won’t even enter the chambers for the nomination process. But today, me, I don’t even know some of the ministers. Last time I traveled with somebody, he said, ‘Oga, it’s me, the minister”. Sorry, he said he is a minister, I said, Wow! Imagine that.
But whose fault is that?
I don’t know (laughs). You promised not to gag me. You are now interrogating me, you promised you are not going to have an interview, we are going to have a discussion. You are interrogating me and you are gaging me.
Nobody is gaging you. Your colleagues in the Senate see your outspoken nature- to some extent, they see you as a sort of controversial figure. Are you now less inclined to speak out because of fear of possible…?
x(Cuts in) It is because I didn’t come here, even day before yesterday, I issued an interview, last week, I did, and my friends are saying, oh, please don’t say it, and I say, if there is nothing to say, I will not. But I’m 64, I thank God for what I am. I’m a son of nobody who became somebody without knowing anybody. I have to be very true to God. And you see, in the Bible, I know a little bit about Bible, and in the Quran, it says, ‘Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes’. And that is what my grandfather told me, my father told me, my mother, all of them are late. They say, speak the truth. And I’m mindful also, it is only in that your interview, I think I used two strong words, but I cannot find an alternate to it. I was just describing the combination. And, you know, before I know, I was crucified, they removed me as the Senate Chief Whip, and I was removed from the committee. That is the first time I have ever seen such a thing, even if I had committed treasonable offense, you just don’t take me to the gun and shoot me or hang me. No, you take me to court and then judge it. But the party didn’t do that. They called me later on and we spoke, they said, “You used a strong word” and I said, Okay, I’m sorry. What else would I say? You know, this is it! After that, people thought that I will go down and sit down and keep quiet. I went to my constituency to visit my farmers. I encourage them. The governor helped us to resettle 11 villages, and we encourage them to go to back to farm. And the military provided them what they call picketing, and escort the farmers in the morning and bring them back in the evening. Then when the harvest has started maturing and it’s time for harvest, the Boko Haram goes in the night to steal. So now, the people have to go and guard their farm produce in the night. And in the process of that, Boko Haram killed eight people at a go! So, I went there, and what is the problem, the Nigerian army in Gwoza particularly that village, which is a battalion, don’t have even the equipment. But here in just about 20 kilometers away, where the Cameroonians are, they have a platoon there that is 80 or 30 soldiers, and there are four tanks. So, I have to speak out!