Chairman, Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), Kaduna State, Rev Joseph Hayab, has said that Nigerians leaders are actually fuelling division, violence and crisis in the country, accusing them of hiding under such circumstances to justify plundering the nation’s resources.
In an interview with VINCENT KALU, the cleric noted that in spite of the renewed hope mantra of the government, the situation of things has not changed.
What are your views on the state of the nation?
Let me be a little spiritual here. I’m convinced Nigeria was created by God for a purpose. The purpose is to bless humanity, especially the African continent, and be a voice for the voiceless. Nigerians have actually played that role over and over and that’s why when you look around this country, you see the hand of God in it. Despite all the challenges, despite the bad governance, despite the failures in some of the systems, this country continues to flourish. People are hungry, but you still see hope, you still see something positive.
So, Nigeria is a country blessed by God. The challenge we have is how we as Nigerians will see the hand of God in this country and take advantage of it towards alleviating the pains, the suffering and the challenges we are seeing. God has not abandoned this nation and that’s why bad government will come and go, but this country remains. Selfish people will come and go, this country remains. People who do not promote unity will come and go, this country remains united. Every day, the leaders are actually fuelling division, fuelling violence, fuelling crisis because that’s the only way they can hide and justify stealing our money; taking away our commonwealth, but God has not abandoned us. So, for that reason, I’m happy, I know that there is hope.
What do we do going forward so that we will benefit and enjoy the best of God’s provision for this country? Then, I come back to the church, to the mosques, to youth and to mothers. How can we begin to implant godly attitude, morals in the lives of our children so that they won’t see what they are seeing today and think it is a good thing, but will come to do something better so that their generation will enjoy?
Imagine that you have a good car, and you fail to service it. You’re not going to enjoy movement, but if you service your good car, fix good tyres and ensure everything is all right, then when you move on the road, you know you are driving a good car. I think that’s the situation in Nigeria. Nigeria is a good car, but lacks good service, lacks good parts, lacks good driver and that’s why we are having problems. But service the car, put good tyres, ensure everything about the car is good, and give the car a good driver. We will even drive and sleep as if nothing is happening. That’s what our country needs. So, we still have problems.
How do we come out of this?
We have many ways to come out of this. One, for those who are leading at the moment, they should be honest with this country and see their privileged position as God’s privilege and use it positively for the advancement of this country. But, if they refuse, we have a responsibility to ensure that we don’t continue like this by preparing, equipping to produce future people who will take over from the present and be good. It can never be like that forever. No, there will be people who will come to correct things.
One of the reasons we see visible divisions and tension in Nigeria is that those who have spoiled Nigeria do not want something good to come out of it. So, they want the next generation to continue to think badly, to continue to treat others badly, to continue to represent Nigeria in a very negative way. But, if we start a system of changing attitude, transforming behaviour through inculcating good values on our children, they will grow to be different; they will grow to want to change. Singapore and others had challenges in the past but they eventually got leaders who wanted the best for their country and transformed the country and today it is something that everybody is happy about. We can do the same. That’s why I believe that there is a need for us to begin to teach values, to promote values, to encourage values – values of love, values of honesty, values of sincerity, values of respect and values of integrity that someone is just on his own, willing not to do what is bad, not because of anything, just because he does not want to bear a bad name, he doesn’t want to see bad things happening around him.
Such people will eventually come into our leadership either as presidents, either as members of the National Assembly, either in the judiciary, either in states, either in local governments and they want to do something different and transform Nigeria. So, there is a way out. Either these people choose to do it now or we work with our children to produce those who will do it better tomorrow. Religious institutions have a role to play. What are we teaching people? I am a pastor; I don’t see myself going to teach people to hate anybody, going to teach people to cheat anybody, going to teach people to wait for their turn to amass wealth. No. I want to teach people to show a difference in speech, difference in action, difference in handling public properties, difference in ensuring that someone can see you and say, if you look for integrity, go for this man.
The National Bureau of Statistics, in its recent report, says that one out of every four Nigerians, especially the youth, want to leave this country. How do we inculcate patriotism to avoid this Japa syndrome?
It is sad that we are having that statistics. If we want to be honest to ourselves that statistics is not a reflection of the entire country. It is more on other parts of Nigeria. The part that I come from, I don’t see my people scrambling to go abroad, I don’t see my people even coming from abroad to think they are high. The fact that you are abroad and you are known abroad doesn’t mean anything in the community I grew up because abroad is not the end result. The most important thing is your impact, what are you bringing or what are you doing to the community? I was just preaching two days ago at a very important occasion and I told my people that look, gradually, even youth are beginning to be angry with some of us who live in city, but don’t make any meaningful impact in the local community. If you want to be remembered, if you want to be celebrated, make impact in the community. It’s not where you live that matters.
Why are people doing Japa or running away? It is because they think things are not happening. I don’t share that sentiment that I need to run away because things are not happening. If we all run away, who’s going to correct it? I come from a community where the idea of running away is not a big deal. In fact, we see those who run away as cowards who don’t want to face the reality. I wish all other parts of Nigeria will take this as a commitment. Let’s stay here and correct it here. However, if anybody finds his way out for education or for development, it is good, but not to run away from Nigeria where they have freedom. This is where we have freedom; this is where we have a voice or have a say. I keep telling people that in my many years of active participation in national issues and community development, I have seen many people who come from abroad to seek either for help or direction from me. It is not in anywhere enticing. They are not giving our youth the true picture, so they think going abroad is a big thing. You can be a PhD holder and you go abroad and you don’t have a voice, but someone with a diploma holder or degree in Nigeria, who is participating in everyday life of this country; who understands what the people need and is doing his best to correct those things, is even respected and more accepted. You can go abroad to build your capacity and come back and add value. Those who are running away, I’m not here to judge them, I would have wished they see that they have more to contribute here than there. There is so much competition about who is wealthy, who is rich, who has this and that and this is why some people think of going abroad and return to say that they have arrived. I want to discourage those who want to Japa to know that there are better things they can do here. All you need to do is to be committed to what you are doing.
There is a current conversation and so much noise about tax in Nigeria. I don’t need the government to remind me to pay tax. I don’t need to argue about tax. All I need is that let the relevant laws be applied to every Nigerian and we move on. My Bible teaches me to respect governing authorities, to pay my tax as at when do. The nations of the world are developed by people staying and doing what is right, obeying the law of the land. If we keep running away to Europe, America Asia, etc then who will developed this place? You want the place to be like Dubai but you cannot stay here to develop it.
The government has asked the citizens to make sacrifices and tighten their belts, but the same leadership is living extravagant lifestyles. How do you juxtapose the two?
This is one of the embarrassing aspects of our leadership. But I don’t want to condemn every Nigerian because some people are bad. I don’t want to destroy Nigeria because some people are not fair to Nigeria. There are Nigerians who are honest, hard working and committed and patriotic while others are not. Unfortunately, the unpatriotic Nigerians are those who find their way into governance; they are the ones who have access to the treasury, so they exploit and give all of us a bad name; a bad image. People are just thinking that all of us are cheats. I wish we will have a leader who will understand that if we have to do national honour, it should not be because the beneficiaries have become governors, senators or those who have the wherewithal, but we should go to communities and look for those who make sacrifices daily to make Nigeria what it is today; who make sacrifices daily to ensure that we have food; who make sacrifices to ensure they secure Nigeria, who make sacrifices daily to ensure that Nigerians who are sick get well, who make sacrifices daily to ensure Nigerian roads are clean.
These are the people we are supposed to be honouring in Nigeria. Because we honour money, honour position, that is why you are seeing what is happening – Nigerian government living an extravagant lifestyle, spending money buying jet, vehicles, convoy etc. But they are not Nigeria; they are part of Nigerians who are a disappointment to Nigeria. Because someone failed and didn’t serve this country well shouldn’t make us to write off this country. There are still people who are doing their best. Can we begin to think and magnify and amplify their voices? I think it is important to know that there are good Nigerians; there are leaders who would not take what does not belong to them home. There are leaders in Nigeria who will not allude to going with convoys because they are governors or president; they prefer to live a simple life. How many of these people who do this rubbish end well? Nigerians should start learning something from this question.
If you are voted into leadership and instead of serving Nigerians, you begin to serve yourself, from a religious point of view, you will give account of your stewardship to God. Even morally, you will not even be that strong to say certain things when other people go wrong. Those who served with honesty and integrity are remembered for a very long time. Let’s have you as a witness, a testimony that there are still good people. Let it begin with you, let it begin with me, let it begin with us. Let us be the stories of how some people transformed their country. Why should you not pray to God and work hard to be the one we read tomorrow that transformed Nigeria and not to put your name among those who looted our treasury?
The Tinubu government came in with the renewed hope mantra. About 18 months after, how can you rate the administration?
Politics comes with a lot of promises. Buhari talked about taking us to a new level. I don’t know if we actually went from where we were to a different level. Again, we are talking about Renewed Hope. For those we belong to his political party, they needed something they can market, something they can talk about, they needed something that they can use to promote their party and probably the Renewed Hope became a message they considered strong. But, the reality is left for Nigerians to say whether there is renewed hope, a renewed hunger, a renewed poverty, a renewed backwardness or renewed poor governance. Nigerians have a responsibility to answer this question. But if you ask me as an individual, I will say that things have really not changed. We started as if something good was about to happen, but it didn’t because of the issue of the removal of fuel subsidy. Today, you hear subsidy has been removed, tomorrow you hear they are paying subsidy. Tomorrow you hear another fuel increase, the next day you hear that it is going to come down. You hear that Port Harcourt refinery has started working and the next day you hear that it is not true that it is old fuel in the tank and they distributed it.
How can there be renewed hope when there is no certainty? Government should as a matter of urgency redeemed her trust deficit. People no longer trust the government. People say terrible negative things about the government because there is no trust. Can those in the government be godly and humble to say, we want to win your confidence; we want to tell you A and we mean A. We want you to believe what we tell you, because what we say is what we do. If you say right and you do left, people are not stupid, they are watching you.
Tinubu wanted to be president and God has given him that opportunity. I will advise that Tinubu and those who love him should encourage him to write his name in gold. It is not enough to be called a president or former president of Nigeria, but it is important that you do something better. Having gotten that office, what else are you looking for rather than doing something better. Apart from us calling you our president and our former president, we should also remember the wonderful things you did to transform this country. The mantra could be there, but are there really renewed hopes? For me, I’m not sure that I have seen them, but I’m still hopeful because my Bible says that the heart of everything is in God’s hand and God can turn it to any direction like a water course. I work hard first to transform my little community and my little area of interest and I hope the president who has large influence than me and others should also work hard to transform his areas of influence and all of us will benefit and then the cry, the hunger, the poverty, the backwardness will change. I just pray that one leader will come and be willing to do what is right, not just bear the name and the title of governance.
Minister of Finance, Wale Edun, said that the government has saved about $20 billion from fuel subsidy, and at the same time the government is going to borrow $2.2 billion. What do you say to this?
I have talked about trust deficit. When you are talking to Nigerians, don’t talk as if you are talking to little children. Don’t talk as if you are talking to babies who do not know their left from the right. Speak with conscience. When those in power come out to make public pronouncement and the next day they contradict themselves by their actions and activities going on. It is quite unfortunate.
If we have saved such money and we are still borrowing, I think someone needs to explain to us about what we are borrowing for. I just gave one example in my earlier response to your question. We sat down one day and there was a newsflash that Port Harcourt refinery was working, only to be told later that it was not true. Nigerians want to trust their government. Can the government help us to trust them? Those in power, enough of this sycophancy, rhetoric and stories that have no basis. Try and win the trust of the people. When you win the trust of the people, they will take ownership of what you are doing and you will move smoothly. When there is no trust even when you say what is true, people will not believe you because you have been lying and saying things that are not true.
The people in power today who are not doing well I hope they will have another opportunity in two and half years to probably change and that is when we begin to learn to think positively. Anybody can come and lie, but we do have an opportunity after every four years to show him whether we trust his lies or we don’t. If we claim that what they are doing is not right and we still vote them, then it is not their fault but ours.
Some stakeholders in the North allege that Tinubu is Yorubanising the country, that all the Grade A ministries are occupied by the Yoruba. What is your take on this?
In the first place, there is no Grade A or B or C ministers. We have wrongly inculcated this type of idea into people’s mind that they think that there is one minister that is Grade A or Grade B or C. A minister is a minister. A minister is an appointee to represent the president from that particular state and that particular ministry. It is to give more room for different representations. All these things are the problems we are facing. So, ministers are ministers. The Minister of Education is simply having some lines and functions that he carries out that the other ministers do not carry. The same thing applies for Minister of State for Health, Minister of Works. The work will define which agency or ministry you are in charge. All these titles of big or small minister are part of the problem. When we start teaching people to see the ministers as the representatives of the people, it will help to stop these differences we are talking about.
I do understand that things are not working well as Nigerians want. These ministers were not appointed from heaven; they were appointed from among us. Who they were before they became ministers will determine the kind of work they will do for us when they become ministers.
When Buhari was the president, the North also received this kind of agitation from the South because the South believed that the North has taken over every key appointment. In the North, the Katsina people take the larger blame because people would even say to us that Katsina people know which ministry or the head of the parastatal that would be retiring or finishing his tenure and they would go and be lobbying to be appointed.
With all those appointments, have the poverty problem in Katsina been solved? No. Did it stop poverty problem in the North during Buhari? No. Has the appointments we are accusing Tinubu solved the poverty problem in the South West? No. So, there is a problem and I think we as a country have to decide whether we need the right pilot or we continue to grumble. None of us in his right senses will walk to the airport and would be told that there is an aero plane, but unfortunately that the pilot is not on duty today, but we have an Imam or a pastor; a Northerner or a Southerner or we have a Yoruba man, a Fulani man, or Hausa or Igbo man etc who is going to fly the plane. As long as that person is not a pilot, nobody would agree to board the flight.
We need to give leadership to those who know what leadership is all about. When we choose leaders because of our tribe, our religion or region, these complain will continue and would never cease. We just moved out with Jonathan and we entered Buhari and we are now with Tinubu, we may go to another person and have the same thing.
Are we looking for people who will save Nigeria and take her to the Promised Land, or we are talking about regional, religious or tribal champions when appointments would be with nepotism and so on? At the moment, Tinubu is the president. Nigeria is a federation, let’s reflect the federal units, let’s reflect the federal character because there is no tribe in Nigeria that doesn’t have experts; there is no region in Nigeria that doesn’t have people who can deliver. Until and unless we have people in government to carry Nigeria together, these divisions would lead to tension, it will lead to backwardness and that is why incompetent people are still leading us and since they have nothing to offer, they have to do something, which they know how to do? They have to steal our money. At least they have done something by stealing, which is not the right thing.
Those in power should know that power is transient and it will come and go. So, if you are Yoruba and you think you want to manipulate everything, tomorrow another tribe will come and they will want to manipulate it to their own advantage. We should grow above that and look for a Nigerian president, and not a tribal or religious champion.