By Henry Uche
Former Director General of Peter Obi-Datti Presidential Campaign Organization, Dr Doyin Okupe, on Channels TV, speaks on how Tinubu inherited a prostrate economy, why he wanted Peter Obi as president among other issues.
What is your position on Labour/FG face-off?
It was a difficult time in government but you know, my position is this, they’re doing so well for now, but I want labour to shelve this colonial mentality, with which it grew up.
It is not labour versus a foreign government, it’s Nigerian labour organization Vs Nigerian government. And there’s nothing that cannot be negotiated. It may be difficult, and you know, I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again, strikes and strike actions, massive strike action, should be the last, very, very, last weapon. We’re back to the drawing board, we’re back to negotiation. So, we don’t need to threaten each other.
Some said if Labour had not gone on that strike Monday, we wouldn’t be here today.
That should also not happen, you know, on the side of government. I used to be part of government; Labour may be right, but in whatever case, government should not wait until there is a major cataclysm or a threat to national survival before you listen to labour, or anybody, not just labour, anybody that is protesting. They must develop a listening ear and dialogue. That is what civilized society employs and we must continually dialogue, have conversations and negotiation; we don’t have to agree for the first time, you don’t have to agree, but we must disagree to agree.
You worked closely with former President Obasanjo, and former President Goodluck Jonathan, what is the big lesson any government should learn in this kind of negotiation?
Government was at all times and I’m happy in Buhari’s administration as bad as it was, it had some people who had sense. Labour is as important as petroleum ministry, or health or education ministry,; we are supposed to have people who have experience, who have knowledge, who are educated, who have conscience and patriotism to handle legal matters. Labour Matters have to do with the working class, and the working class is the group of people who laid the golden eggs. Their affairs should not just be treated lackadaisically. Anything that has to do with labour disagreements with wages and welfare should get government’s top attention.
Capacity of government to pay, do you agree that labour went too far?
Certainly. There’s a problem. In Nigeria today, from my experience from what I’ve seen, we seem to be losing it. People are losing the sense of right or wrong. You know, what he (SGF) said is absolutely correct. I agree with the SGF. You can’t go and switch off the national grid of a nation. That exactly it’s unacceptable. But I don’t also want to blame labour. The situation should never have arisen. We have a whole government in place, where’s the security? Where is intelligence? People are also taking politics too far. You wouldn’t want to grind the government to a halt, as I’m telling you, it is us versus them. We must learn not to lose focus at any given time. Labour went off course, by going to shut off national grid; that is evil. It’s sinful. It is unacceptable, and is criminal. But I’m happy we have at this present time somebody like Bola Tinubu at the saddle of affairs, and I’m sure he believes that being a democrat, he should not be high handed. But you know, government at a point in time has to draw the line. Otherwise, you know, the Yoruba people will say that the snake had a no poison within its teeth, farmers would use it to tie firewood and bring home. So, you know, it is good to be a democrat. I appreciate that. And it is very nice, because government did not do a reprisal, that’s why we’re having this discussion still going on now.
From what you have seen over 25 years now, would you say that Bola Tinubu is committed enough compared with other presidents?
I have said that you can never, ever judge this administration like you do to other administrations. You know, because this is an abnormal situation; this administration came in after such a prostate economy for eight years; the government and governance were totally abandoned, anything went at that time. So you know, things became so bad. There was a period of time that we were actually spending 90 cents out of every dollar we earned to pay debt. So that was the point this administration came in. People are forgetting, you know.
Are you giving this government a chance?
I am not giving them a chance, I’m giving them more than a chance.
But you once believed that Bola Tinubu cannot do it, you pitched your tent with Peter Obi
That is not true, I was in PDP, right. And I also wanted to run for president, you know, I will remember my tweet on March 24 in 2022. I was an aspirant for presidential election under PDP, I said that if Bola Tinubu wins the primary for APC, I said categorically that he will do well, I knew he will do. He has come into government at a very difficult time. I don’t know why he decided to come at this time because it is a very bad time for anybody to come and administer this country.
You didn’t think Atiku or Peter Obi would have done better?
Let me tell you, for the people that actually ran for president for 2023, by benefit of hindsight, Bola Tinubu is the best.
Even while you worked for Peter Obi?
I’m telling you that from the benefit of hindsight, you know, I’ve seen Peter Obi, I have been with Atiku Abubakar, I also knew Bola Tinubu so many years ago; many are not aware. You know, we have interacted, I’ve not seen him in the last seven, eight years or whatever. That’s not the point. But in terms of capacity, capability, and commitment and knowledge, you know, people under estimate what he did in Lagos. What he did in Lagos was a wonderful job. I went and I met and I sat with him for three hours and he took me through what they were doing and what they will do. And I was, even though I was in NRC at that time, but I was impressed. I was really impressed. So you know, I think that if this country would give this gentleman some time, you know, I heard Bode George spoke this morning. You know, and that’s the truth. You cannot judge this administration just after one year in office, and even it’s only been one year and government did not come on fully until August.
Are you now…
(Cuts in)
In literary language, there’s what we call context. The context of the matter. Let me repeat what I said. I said, I’m an evangelist, and I think and talk about Christ Jesus; in everything that I see, I see Christ in everything. Oh, you know, I told a young man, in heaven, at the time of, you know, sometimes that God, the Almighty said, who will go for us, alright, and Christ Jesus, volunteered and said, ‘Send me, here I’m’ do you understand? And He came and died for the world. So I said, anybody who came after Buhari to run this country, is sacrificing himself, is putting his neck on the…. somebody who sacrifices or plans to sacrifice his life for others, as a Christ like attitude.
Even compared to Peter the Rock, since you’re making reference to the Bible, you didn’t think that Peter your friend could have done better?
I have not seen Peter in action.
You don’t think he has the kind of capacity?
I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that.
Are you not saying all these because of one political bias or……
At all, I am 72, even when I was 28 or 30, and I was contesting, I campaigned for election in Lagos. I, a small rat, I faced Jakande, I faced late Chief Awolowo, God bless them. So why would I 40 years later, not be able to say things as I see it, you know, I’ve never had some sort of crap.
It sounds like betrayal though…
It’s not betrayal…Wait, wait. Peter and I had an understanding. We wanted a Southern president. And when I spoke to Pa Adebanjo, he told me, if we want a southern president, which region do you really think should produce that, and I said in all truth sir and as a Christian, it should be the South East. He said that is correct and that is his position. He said, my son, let’s support South East. I said I agree. So when I look at the candidates, and I was a member in the PDP and those who were vying for president, the only person I saw that was strong and cerebral, I felt was capable was Peter Obi. Peter Obi never came to me. I went to him, to say, I was going to back him. We went to all over the country and I campaigned for him, and we didn’t win. So as far as I’m concerned, that is over. There are no permanent enemies in politics, or permanent friends, only permanent interests. We had an interest and the interest was a southern president, God has given us another southern president, not the one that he desired. You know, I wanted Peter Obi as a southern president, but God now gave another southern president in the person of Bola Tinubu, who am I to query God?
Is your case similar to the man who said ‘I was once blind, now I can see?
I didn’t have all that information at the time. I was not blind
Some governors said that 60,000 will literally cripple the economy of some states. Do you agree with the state governors?
Number one, you know we keep doing something wrong in this country. Number one, the Nigerian Governors’ is a misnomer. It should just be a collection of a meeting of governors. We should not do or make laws that is all encompassing, that makes it compulsory for all governors in the Federation to obey them; they are sub- nationalities on their own. I mean, for instance, if you paid a minimum wage in Lagos, for instance, you know, why should I pay that in Yobe? Or Sokoto, let every governor decide for his own state by his own people, that this is what we can afford.
The governors are saying that figure is going to be disastrous
So be it! What the president should concern himself about the Federal Government, we should not impose anything on the state; the state and the labour unions at the state level should go and have their own agreement. You know, these are federating units for God’s sake. Because of too many, too many years of military regime, we tend to have lost it. And that’s why people are talking about local government autonomy. There’s nothing like that; how can there be local government autonomy? The federal system is based on the system of government based on an agreement between two units, the central government and the federating units.
Some would disagree with you; there are three tiers of government
They can disagree. There are no three tiers in a federal system.
The military wrote the constitution. I am not saying it’s not binding, but it is a misnomer. It is wrong. The point is that the state governors say that they cannot afford to pay. That is neither here nor there, because you see, thanks to the subsidy removal. All right. You know what the states were earning prior to this administration. Some states were earning double, some actually triple what they were earning before on a monthly basis. So I don’t think, you know, a majority of the states cannot afford N600,000 or I don’t think so. But whatever it is, each state governor should be allowed to decide.
At a time, some states were getting bailouts. They literally could not exist if the Federal Government was not giving, they were just declared insolvent because of economic crunch
That’s why I said nobody should force any state government to adopt a minimum wage that they cannot afford to pay. But you see, it should be a matter that will be resolved between the state administration assembly and the local labour people. The rent to pay for one room in Bariga or wherever is different for what you pay in Damaturu. So, meaning these minimum wage cannot be across board. It cannot be; it’s not an affair of the NGF. There is nothing like that.
Some State governors were even owing the N30,000…
Yes about 15 of them could not pay. But I pray labour should not make it an issue and that the Federal Government itself should not over- indulge or dwell too much on that. Let the Federal Government be concerned with what happens at the center, the Federal Government agencies, MDAs etc, etc. Maybe, states go and solve their problem. Let us for once live like a federation. You know, you can have a minimum wage at the federal level, a new minimum wage at the state level.
You mentioned the issue of fuel subsidy and its implications
Yes because states are earning triple double what they used to, and that’s why I wonder when people say where is the subsidy. States that were earning before in January 2022, I think the total money that was shared at the federal account was about N600 billion naira. But after the subsidy, it went to N1.2 trillion. So where did the money come from, the money came from subsidy.
Atiku said this government is very deceitful in his administration of fuel subsidy and is about to conclude a payment of N5.4 trillion in subsidy payment for the year 2024
I have been in government, there are many things that government can’t afford to say this what we are doing. Let us look at it realistically, the landing costs of PMS is probably still the same. Okay, but if you know it was $70 or something or whatever it is I don’t know, now if at that time, dollar to Naira was N400, and you fix the price at a particular point, when the dollar price now goes to N1450, you don’t need to be a genius to know that the ground is no longer level. I think what happened is, the government said fuel subsidy is out and they meant it, and it was out but at the same time the government keeps steps, you know, to equalize or rationalize the exchange rate. So, if the price was N400/$1, and it came to N1000/$1, the price of PMS is not going to be the same. So, government now coming to us to say, oh, the price change, FX has changed, therefore we must change the price you know, people should sympathize with them, it’s a matter of integrity. What I’ve seen here is there is, there may be, I’m not saying authoritatively, what you call strategic concealment.
But transparency is the key in….
Cuts in
No, no, no, no, I have been in government for years. I have been close to governments and administration for years, it is not everything that you can actually do in an open manner. Okay for instance, you received an information that in Yola or Maduguri (I’ve actually witnessed that) that insurgents are going to attack, and you plan to apprehend them, you don’t make it a good public issue. There are many things government does and conceals not because they want to be dubious, but because it maybe not profitable. Because at the end of the day, what has government done; government has not committed sin, only government has done something that, you know, hurts us because government said, oh, you know, the price of fuel we buy is N600 and the dollar now changes to N1400, and they now say we should buy at 1000; we are the one going to be shouting.
What about the petroleum equalization Fund that gives you…. What the Atiku of this world are asking is, let us know what you are doing
You know, I believe Atiku can say whatever he likes, he is the leader of opposition, he is a politician. He still wants to run for president
You said he still wants to run for president
Yes, that’s obvious now. He said I will run for President, as long as I’m alive, that’s what he said.
Will that not be against the principle of rotational agreement…
That has always been the issue. That was why you know, Peter Obi, and myself moved out of PDP, because the PDP as of that time were hell bent on not respecting the wishes of the southern leadership
What do you think would happen if Atiku Abubakar throws his hat in the ring in 2027, as against Bola Tinubu of the APC who will want to seek re- election?
It is going to be interesting. That’s what I can say. Only God knows what will happen.
But would it be fair after Buhari’s eight years?
It has never been fair that is why we advocated and we worked for a southern president. You know, I believe that there are men of good conscience in the North. It has always been like that. The North has always been politically savvy enough to stabilize the polity of this country. You know, you will recall the Abiola time, when he died and, the whole country was made to vote for only two candidates, and they were both Yoruba people – South West, that was a northern game. You know, because they felt that they need to protect the unity of the country. The North has a reservoir of leadership that always point at the correct time always moving to stabilize the polity and it would happen again.